2 Nov 05 Moriarty Tribunal

The Taoiseach: I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 5, inclusive, together.

The total costs incurred by my Department in respect of this tribunal from 1997 to 30 September 2005 is ?21,364,879. This includes fees paid to counsel for the tribunal and administration costs incurred to date since its establishment. Total payments made to the legal team were ?16,052,473 up to 30 September, 2005.

As regards the projected costs for the completion of the tribunal, it is impossible to predict what costs may be awarded, and to whom, by its sole member. The overall estimate for 2005 is ?10.552 million. The day to day costs for the tribunal provided for in the Estimate for 2005 amounts to ?4 million. However, provision of an additional ?6.5 million was made to cover costs such as report publication and some element of award of legal costs in the event that the tribunal completed its work in 2005. I propose to circulate in the Official Report the costs accruing for the tribunal in respect of each year.

Given the subject matter of this reply, I think it opportune to inform the House that this morning the Government agreed to a request to extend the deadline for completion of the tribunal. The date originally envisaged for the application of the new fees to the Moriarty tribunal was 11 January 2006. This was calculated on the basis that the tribunal's programme of work, as it stood in mid-2004, would be concluded on or about that date. Due to unforeseen circumstances that have since arisen, the extensive nature of its terms of reference and ongoing inquiries, and litigation by the parties involved, the tribunal has requested that it be given an additional amount of time to complete its work.

The matter has been discussed with the tribunal. Given the relative imminence of the conclusion of its work, it is believed that it is reasonable to facilitate its continuance until 30 June 2006. This represents an extension of five and a half months on the previously expected completion date. It is to be borne in mind that the tribunal has been in operation for eight years and is now nearing its completion.

It is expected that the new tribunals legislation will be enacted prior to 30 June 2006. Therefore, there should be no obstacle to reducing fees payable to lawyers appearing before the Moriarty tribunal after that date, in the event that it has not completed its work by then.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House.

The costs of the tribunal accruing in respect of each year is as follows:

2005 up to 30 September = ? 2,721,631

2004 up to 30 September = ? 3,610,026

2003 up to 30 September = ? 3,440,954

2002 up to 30 September = ? 2,799,057

2001 up to 30 September = ? 2,242,361

2000 up to 30 September = ? 2,171,921

1999 up to 30 September = ? 2,139,665

1998 up to 30 September = ? 1,685,962

1997 up to 30 September = ?553,303

Mr. Sargent: The Taoiseach has indicated that the goalposts have been moved again. The conclusion date of 11 January has been put back. Can he estimate how long the Moriarty tribunal will continue, based on current information? Will he clarify the situation as regards the unforeseen circumstances, given the unacceptable cost that is involved, since the inquiry is about corruption within the political process? What unforeseen circumstances make it impossible to predict when the tribunal will finish? Given the proposed scaling down of the fees, will he indicate what has been the response to date on that from the tribunal? Is it a matter of course that this will take place or are there unforeseen difficulties in that regard too, given that the House would like to minimise the cost of the tribunal?

The Taoiseach: The Deputy has asked a number of questions. The tribunal states it will finish its work by the end of June next year. Given the unforeseen circumstances as regards the litigation of parties involved and other matters, it remains confident that it will finish by next June. The new legislation will be in place by then. That means we will automatically move to the new fees arrangements. We have agreed those dates. Were it not for genuine delays and additional work, the new fees regime would be in place anyway. The Attorney General and Government agree that it is reasonable in these circumstances to allow the tribunal the time it needs to finish. I am advised, however, that the tribunal is confident it will finish by the end of June next year.

(later)

Mr. Sargent: It is becoming increasingly clear that the Taoiseach must not simply come into the House and say he is pushing back the date on which the new rates kick in. On 22 June, he said that if there was to be any change in the coming into force of the new fees by 11 January 2006, he would bring the matter back before the House. This is something that cannot be passed off with the reply that the date has been shifted. This House must consider whether it is right to put back the date of the new rates. Will the Taoiseach bring a more substantial motion before the House so Members can decide whether the new date is to be applied or whether the new rates are to become effective later than was arranged? Where is the legislation that was promised? The tribunals of inquiry Bill has been promised in the last two sessions. Is it not the case that the Taoiseach finds himself on the back foot due to the delay in introducing this legislation and that the solicitors are, essentially, calling the shots-----

An Ceann Comhairle: That question does not arise under these questions.

Mr. Sargent: -----at an expensive rate? A sum of ?213,000 is the new rate and that is a reduced, bargain rate given the new rates being proposed for a senior counsel. Much money has still to be paid out.

(later)

The Taoiseach: This issue does not arise directly from the question. I raised it in the reply because it was appropriate to do so. The Government only made the decision on this today. There was no lobbying on this issue. The original dates were fixed by conversation between the Attorney General and the ten chairmen of the tribunals on dates of completion. If there is some new work under the terms of reference, something comes to light, there are delays because of litigation or some other difficulty arises, the work cannot be completed. All these matters arose in this case and the chairman stated that to complete the work efficiently and to retain the team, that time was required.

Mr. Sargent: Blackmail, in other words.

The Taoiseach: That would be entirely unfair both to the legal team and to Justice Moriarty. I have my own views about the tribunals and trying to get them all to the date but where there is additional work, litigation or other issues to hold up a tribunal, particularly if this tribunal is to be finished next summer, that would be an unfair interpretation to put on it.

Mr. Sargent: The Taoiseach has given in to it.

The Taoiseach: With regard to the legislation, the new tribunals of inquiry Bill will be passed, which will mean that when work comes to an end they should be able to move on this. All the other tribunals are still working to that deadline. It is not a question that this is just being rolled over but the chairman has given a fixed date to end the tribunal and to deal with all aspects. If that does not happen, it is a problem but at least the plan to complete it has been outlined. Based on that, the Attorney General brought the matter to the Cabinet and the Cabinet approved it. Obviously, the Minister for Finance-----

Mr. Sargent: The House has not approved it. The Taoiseach said he would bring the decision to the House.

An Ceann Comhairle: I call Question No. 6.

Mr. Sargent: The Taoiseach said it would come before the House. The House has not approved-----

An Ceann Comhairle: I ask Deputy Sargent to resume his seat. I have called Question No. 6.

Mr. Sargent: I am simply calling for order in the House.

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy has been given much latitude on this question today.

Mr. Sargent: The Taoiseach said he would bring that decision before the House. The House has not approved moving that date back.

An Ceann Comhairle: I call the Taoiseach on Question No. 6.

Mr. Sargent: It is taxpayers' money.

Mr. Rabbitte: Representations from the Law Library could not be described as lobbying.

The Taoiseach: Definitely not.

Mr. Sargent: They have something on him.